What could be more Mormon than a meeting? A series of meetings, that’s what!
This Sunday’s Gospel Doctrine lesson is Lesson 2: “That Wast Chosen Before Thou Wast Born”. As written, the emphasis is on the foreordination of “noble and great” spirits in the pre-mortal existence to roles in the work of God in mortality.
Our doctrine of the pre-mortal world comes from a very few scriptural sources. You can find them grouped under “Council in Heaven” in the Topical Guide: some are directly on point; others are, I suspect, poetic lines that we interpret as literal reports of (pre)historic events. In any event, there are few scriptural sources, and our understanding of the premortal existence, the Council in Heaven (or the “war” that Revelation 12:7 – that vision notable for its literal description of actual beasts and events (?) – calls it) and all ideas connected with it come from teachings of prophets, beginning with Joseph Smith, some of which expand just a bit on the scriptural record, fully in line with expectations of prophets and their teachings.
In short, we have few explicit sources for the doctrine, and if you are a longtime member of the Church you have heard them all, over and over. It is unlikely that you will hear new details of the Council in Heaven when there are so few sources for the doctrine, all well examined, all well known.
So …
When a friend who is preparing to teach this Sunday asked a question about something in the lesson, I sat up and took notice.
This Sunday’s gospel doctrine lesson says, “… latter-day prophets have indicated that the Council in Heaven was a series of meetings rather than a single meeting.” But it doesn’t give any reference. Anyone know where that comes from?
Indeed it does say that, in the first point about Abraham learning that spirits were foreordained to mortal missions. And indeed no source for that statement is given.
I am confident that this is not a statement that I grew up hearing. I have taught Lesson 2 in past Sunday School cycles but had not noticed it in the manual. (I tend to teach directly from the scriptures without relying on the manuals beyond their scripture block designation and their purpose statements, and may not have ever actually read the text of that paragraph.) Where does the idea come from, and how did it make its way into the manual – without attribution?
This oddly specific, oddly concrete – given how little we actually know about premortality – statement is a pet idea of Robert J. Matthews (1926-2009), a longtime teacher of religion at BYU. The image of multiple meetings can be traced directly to him:
In an address to the Church Education Department on 19 July 1986, he stated:
The grand council in heaven was probably a series of meetings that could have lasted thousands of years. The idea that we were spirits roaming around who then held one meeting and had one vote is too simplified. We were taught for centuries. Those who became the devil and his angels did not become that way through a vote, but a life-style.
The 1990 book The Man Adam, co-edited by Joseph Fielding McConkie and Robert J. Matthews, contains this paragraph on page 73, echoing the language used by Bro. Matthews elsewhere:
When we contemplate the antiquity and eternal nature of the plan of salvation, we conclude that the Grand Council in Heaven, as it is sometimes called, was not a single meeting but rather a series of meetings – an entire education, so to speak.
The article “Council in Heaven” in the 1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism claims that:
Although spoken of as a single council, there may have been multiple meetings where the gospel was taught and appointments were made.
Although John L. Lund, not Robert J. Matthews, is named as the author of this article, the two were colleagues at BYU. Bro. Matthews is the author of closely related articles in the Encyclopedia (“Fall of Adam,” “Book of Moses,” “Mother in Heaven,” and perhaps others).
In his address concerning the spirit world, given at Education Week on 21 August 2007 (beginning about 11:30), Bro. Matthews says:
“Grand Council” is a term often used by the Prophet Joseph Smith to describe the setting for official top-level priesthood functions in the pre-earth life. The plan of God was introduced and taught in many meetings over an extended period of time, collectively called the “Grand Council.”
In none of these declarations is any authoritative source cited. It appears to be a matter of logic and reason on Bro. Matthews’ part – and the suggestion is logical, in an unimaginative, 20th century sort of way, a way that pictures modern corporate life as the pattern for heavenly board meetings, or that envisions the instruction of pre-mortal spirits as a series of undergraduate lectures or massive stake conferences. But nothing stronger than personal reasoning is given – no writings of prophets, no references to Conference messages, no citations of scripture.
Please note that I do not claim to know that this is false doctrine, ((I note here, without specificity but merely to record the existence of certain objections, some other claims about premortality taught in the linked Education Week talk, that appear to me to be completely unjustified, and perhaps false. In the interest of time and focus, I limit this post to the single idea explored here.)) only that it is doctrine which appears to have no prophetic origin. It seems passing strange to me that this claim of a “series of meetings” – as trivial as it is to the overall message of Lesson 2 focused on foreordination – should be included in a Sunday School manual, with the apparently entirely unfounded claim that “latter-day prophets have indicated” it.
I do note that for something like 25 years, Robert J. Matthews was a member of the Correlation Committee responsible for ensuring that lesson manuals were doctrinally correct. While I obviously cannot prove that this statement was inserted at his instance, he does seem a likely candidate for its sponsorship. I can find no one else making such a point other than Bro. Matthews and his closest associates.
The claim of prophetic support for this notion seems odd to me, in view of the lack of citations to such support from every place where I can easily find the statement. If there have been such prophetic teachings, I would be glad to have them pointed out to me. Readers?
Ardis, Work such as yours on these kinds of questions is very important. Keeping track of the textual development of such folk “doctrines” would be an enormous service.
I hope that this post turns up some answers. The first time I heard this, I asked myself where that idea came from, but didn’t pursue it beyond that. I, too would like to know, because I haven’t found it in the scriptures.
Our scriptural foundation for details about the preexistence is pretty slim. I had never heard this particular interpretation before, and like you say, it makes some sense, but otherwise seems to be purely speculative to me. I am just now reading David Bokovoy’s first volume on authoring the Old Testament. His warnings about presentism seem appropriate. I will miss this Sunday’s lesson as I teach an open forum on family history each second Sunday, so I don’t know it if will come up. Good to have the background on this, so thank you.
While the common way to portray it in the church is as a single big meeting, personally I have always viewed it as a sitting council. Think a “Stake High Council”, which does not refer to a single meeting, or even a sequence of meetings, but is a decision making group. So I have always understood the “Council of Heaven” to refer to a designated decision making group.
Without having really considered it, your interpretation is more how I have pictured it in my mind, quantum. We would have all had to have the chance to respond individually to the plan, but that doesn’t say anything about how and when we had that opportunity.
Which underscores how limited our knowledge really is, and, I think, the necessity of not pushing our private interpretations as doctrine, claiming support those interpretations may not necessarily have.
In my own teaching, I try to stay close to the scriptures. I do not accept the philosophies of men which have been mingled with our scripture. But many among us cannot tell the difference.
ji, it’s hard to fault someone for not recognizing the difference if those non-scriptural, non-prophetic ideas are published in official manuals.
This is where I benefit from my literature background and the insistence of my instructors that we analyze the text. You may assume something, but if the text doesn’t actually say that, then, well . . . the text doesn’t say it.
One example of this is the common belief that Nephi, the prophet at the time of Christ’s birth, waited to pray about the impending slaughter of Christians until the very night before the deadline when believers would be killed if the sign weren’t given. And, miraculously, the sign appeared. I remember one woman practically in tears at the thought of poor Mary past her due date waiting for this arbitrary Nephite deadline before she could deliver her child. But the text never says that. There WAS a date. And the sign was given the night after THIS particular prayer, but the text never says when the deadline was or that Nephi waited until the last minute to pray, or that he only prayed once. So we don’t know, and therefore it is pointless to get too upset about it.
The one council or many councils or the Council as a body not a meeting issue reminds me of a verse in Alma Chapter 40
19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.
and in the next verse:
but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.
Alma, at least, knew the difference between opinion and inspired truth.
Now that is a pattern we can all stand to follow. Thanks, Laura.
If Mathews was on that committee for 25 years, it is at least plausible that he personally had conversations with apostles that supported this idea.
In the end it is not vital for our salvation, but it is interesting to ponder.
Thank goodness for Mary Ellen Edmunds who came up with the 14th Article of Faith: “We believe in meetings—all that have been scheduled, all that are now scheduled, and we believe that there will yet be scheduled many great and important meetings. We have endured many meetings and hope to to be able to endure all meetings. Indeed we may say that if there is a meeting, or anything that resembles a meeting, or anything that we might possibly turn into a meeting, we seek after these things.”
Elder Holland said something similar in the Oct. 1994 General Conference
“Like every prophet before him—including Joseph Smith, Jr.—and every prophet who will succeed him, President Hunter was called and foreordained in the grand councils of heaven before this world was.”
In the Oct. 1911 General Conference, Pres. Joseph Eckersley, President of the Wayne Stake said, “He knew because He was present in the grand councils of heaven before this earth was created, when the plan of salvation was formulated. He understood that He had been chosen of the Father, and that council, to be the Redeemer of the world. He glorified in the privilege of coming to earth to perform His mission, but He gave the glory, thanksgiving, and credit unto God the Father, whose will He had come to do.”
In 1859 Elder Orson Pratt taught about “Councils in Heaven”. From that time until the present, the phrase “Councils in Heaven” was used 31 times in General Conference.It appears Pres. George Q. Cannon taught it in 1898, Elder Talmage said it 1928 and it was last used in 2013 from Elder Cook of the Twelve. I don’t know if all these brethren knew of the idea from someone else or said it independently of each other, but what we can say it was at least first taught in General Conference by Elder Orson Pratt. It also appears they just said it, like Dr. Matthews with no scripture to back it up.
Thanks, cameron. Speaking of “councils” in the plural does imply multiplicity, whether we understand “council” as meetings or as organized leadership bodies, and I’m glad you thought to search for it this way. I didn’t.
It does seem, though, somehow less specific, less concrete than Bro. Matthews’ “series of meetings,” and lacks the definite contradiction of “one event” with “many events” — that contradiction appears very definitely to be the point of including the statement in the lesson. I’m not convinced that we could consider the unadorned use of the phrase “councils in heaven” as certain support for that point the way Bro. Matthews used it. Not yet.
I hear you! that’s the issue, what did they have in mind when they said it? More researching to be done!
Well, you see, latter-day prophets like Nephi Anderson and Lex de Azevedo…
I kid!! Also, I don’t really know if those two are relevant to this particular question Still, they’re why I find uncited assertions on this particular topic extra problematic. It’s hard to figure out what the church teaches when information traceable to the standard works or to the prophets is sparse, and when it’s all surrounded by a swirl of assumptions based on dramatizations.
Here is what I have been taught all my life; I do not know an authoritive source, other than the current chapter headings:
Abraham chapter 4’s chapter heading: “The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon — Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.” There is your seven-day council meeting. They are making plans. If you apply the Book of Moses to this, if could also be said that this is when everything was created spiritually, which would mean it was more than just a council meeting as we know them.
Abraham chapter 5 chapter heading: “The Gods finish Their planning of the creation of all things — They bring to pass the Creation according to Their plans” – Again applying the Book of Moses to this, this is when everything that had been created spiritually was now created physically.
I am a few years older than you, Ardis, and this is how I was taught it since Primary and Junior Sunday School. Again, I do not know a written, documentable source.
Time to chime in with my two cents [Ardis, I really do apologize for a comment longer than your original post], I do feel that the same scriptures get repeated every time, but this suggestion of a “series of meetings” is interesting, and surprisingly I was able to find a few prophetic utterances to back it up (As others mentioned, this isn’t something I remember hearing before, and the seeming source of a CES instructor is, um…, slightly questionable). I was able to find a few sources, mostly thanks to the insight cameron had.
Brigham Young
“It was decreed in the councils of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that [Joseph Smith] should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people and receive the fullness of the keys and power of the Priesthood of the Son of God.” (Brigham Young, Deseret News, Oct. 26, 1859, p. 266., as quoted by “Teachings of Joseph Smith”)
John Taylor
“and in the councils of heaven it was agreed that this kingdom should be established; it is according to the word and will and eternal designs of Jehovah” (General Conference, Sunday Oct 9 1881)
Wilford Woodruff
“Opposition to the laws of God commenced in the councils of heaven at the time one-third of the heavenly hosts were cast out” (General Conference, Sunday Oct 6 1889)
Joseph Smith
It was the design in the Councils of heaven before the world was that the principle & law of that priesthood was predicated upon the gathering of the people in every age of the world. (Sermon recorded by Willard Richards, 11 June 1843, from “Words of Joseph Smith”)
This one isn’t so simple however. Franklin D. Richards recorded recorded Joseph stating that “the Order & Ordinances of the Kingdom were instituted by the Priesthood in the council of Heaven before the World was”, and on other occasions Joseph clearly taught that there was one meeting: “every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council.” (Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith) The wording “grand council” suggests both that there were other councils, and that this one was of particular importance. It would be interesting to see if “grand council” is a term used by others.
Frequent use of the singular form appears to have taken off in the 1930s (see http://lds-general-conference.org, use terms “council/councils in/of heaven”), as well as a switch from “council of” to “council in” sometime since. There are also some instances where latter-day prophets used the term more loosely. John Taylor, describing the beginning of the restoration, stated “the time had come, in the councils of heaven, that it was necessary to start the latter-day work,” (Delivered at Kaysville, On Sunday Afternoon, March 2, 1879)
Heber J. Grant, in a general conference in the 1940’s related a vision he had at a time when he had many doubts about his calling as an Apostle. “As I rode along alone, I seemed to see a council in heaven. The Savior was there; the Prophet Joseph was there; my father and others that I knew were there. In this council it seemed that they decided that a mistake had been made in not filling the vacancies in the Quorum of the Twelve, and conference had adjourned. The chances were the Brethren would wait another six months, and the way to remedy the situation was to send a revelation naming the men who should fill the vacancies. In this council the Prophet said, ‘I want to be represented by one of my own in that Council.’ ”
Both of these suggest the “councils of heaven” are ongoing, which is something new to me (although I have heard the story of a brother in Cache valley in the early days of the church who had had a vision where he was told a heavenly council had decided he should live and accept a calling, I don’t quite remember the details). If you feel like stirring the pot a bit, Heber J. Grant’s account suggests he may have been chosen after he was born.
In summary, while these quotes describe a series of meetings, some ongoing, it also seems that the “grand council” designates one particular meeting out of many. God is actively watching and counseling over his children. While it would be easy to misread a few quotations out of context, I won’t speculate any further.
Thanks, Seth — that’s all useful, and I’m glad to have it.
Some of those quotations — those that specifically address the events we commonly associate with the premortal presentation and acceptance/rejection of the plan of salvation — do seem especially relevant.
Is it all right if I still find it strange — really, really strange — that Bro. Matthews found this detail to be so important that he pushed it over and over, yet doesn’t seem to have supported it with the prophetic “indications” he claimed for it? Especially when he presents it as a correction to others’ misinformation rather than as insight on his part?
I no longer teach Gospel Doctrine. If I were teaching tomorrow, though, I would not quote the “series of meetings” line any more than I would get into the usual argument over the semantic difference between “foreordination” and “predestination.” Both points are unnecessary and pedantic and have no devotional purpose.
The scriptural evidence for the continuous nature of the Divine Council is one of those “miss it because you don’t know whatyou are looking at” things that gets obscured in translation. One of the best examples is Amos 3:7 “Surely the Lord will do nothing except he revealeth his secrets to his servants the prophets.”
“Secrets” in this case is a translation of the word sod (long o) which refers to both a deliberative body (council) and the authoritative pronouncements thereof. One of the marks of a prophet in the Old Testament was attending (as a mortal) a meeting of the council at which one receives their commission (1 Ne 1:8-16 http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/divinecouncil-ch2.pdf, https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/how-did-god-call-his-prophets-ancient-times).
If this is still the pattern current Prophets aren’t saying, but given that one of the alternate accounts of the First Vision mentions hosts of angels in addition to the Father and Son Joseph Smith’s call, at least, fits.
Ardis, I think that is perfectly reasonable. I was surprised I found any quotes supporting the idea at all. Even then, as you noticed, the most applicable quotes stop a long ways short of calling it a series of meetings, or suggesting there is a hidden meaning behind the term “grand council,” or something similar.
It’s a good thing there are blogs to have these unnecessary and pedantic discussions on.
Better than having them in a high priests’ group meeting with guys arguing passionately without preparation and without access to sources. 🙂
Ardis — in reply to #21: 🙂 you’re assuming those high priests are awake! One of the reasons I enjoy Primary is because you know your class is definitely awake! But as you allude to in #18, I would not teach it with out sufficient reason. Or satisfactory documentation — that I’ve learned in the years I’ve been reading this blog. In a church setting, I won’t teaching something that’s not in the manual unless I have documentation.
I found this: Elder Bruce R. McConkie: “There were many meetings, conferences, councils and schooling sessions held among the Gods and their spirit offspring in pre-existence. Among other things, at these various assemblages, plans were made for the creation and peopling of this earth and for the redemption and salvation of the offspring of Deity.” (Mormon Doctrine, p163)
I submit that there had to be a running council or multiple meetings. Reason being that when Lucifer was cast down to the earth, the earth had to been focussed and created prior to his rebellion in order for him to be cast there.